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iCM Forum Film World Cup match 1C: India vs Romania vs Chile; Voting deadline: Nov 19
Topic Started: Oct 27 2014, 01:20:21 AM (5,069 Views)
mjf314
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This is match 1C of the iCM Forum Film World Cup.

CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManager
IndiaAgraharathil KazhuthaiDonkey in a Brahmin Village1978perceval
RomaniaReconstituireaReconstruction1968funkybusiness
ChileLa nanaThe Maid2009monty

Screenshots


Voting Rules:
- You must watch all 3 films before you vote.
- To vote, rank the 3 films from most favorite to least favorite. (note: you're ranking the individual films, not the countries)

The winner of the match is the film that beats the other 2 films head-to-head. If A "beats" B, it means that A is ranked higher than B more often than B is ranked higher than A. If there's no winner using this method, it'll be decided by average rank.

Here's a quick summary of how the tournament works

iCM list for round 1
Edited by mjf314, Oct 29 2014, 08:57:43 AM.
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tommy_leazaq
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Already watched Chile.. Very Good film with great acting.. 7.3/10.

Glad to see a movie from my native representing India.. Hope it'll do well.. :sweat:
Will watch the movie soon and try to give any background information if needed.
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Mario Gaborović
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1. Agraharathil Kazhuthai
2. La nana
3. Reconstituirea
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joachimt
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In group B people are complaining about the lack of English subs for a perfectly understandable English movie with a very decent rip. How would those people watch Agraharathil Kazhuthai then? The only available rip is of poor image and sound quality. The subtitles appear often white-on-white and sometimes the characters are unsubbed when they talk English with a very strong accent from India. This is a lot more difficult then Careful....
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monty
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Screenshot from La nana:

Posted Image
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monty
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joachimt
Oct 27 2014, 10:12:44 PM
In group B people are complaining about the lack of English subs for a perfectly understandable English movie with a very decent rip. How would those people watch Agraharathil Kazhuthai then? The only available rip is of poor image and sound quality. The subtitles appear often white-on-white and sometimes the characters are unsubbed when they talk English with a very strong accent from India. This is a lot more difficult then Careful....
No worries, joachim. The vast majority of us are seasoned watchers of bootlegs with bad pic and sound quality. :lol:
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joachimt
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monty
Oct 27 2014, 10:22:32 PM
joachimt
Oct 27 2014, 10:12:44 PM
In group B people are complaining about the lack of English subs for a perfectly understandable English movie with a very decent rip. How would those people watch Agraharathil Kazhuthai then? The only available rip is of poor image and sound quality. The subtitles appear often white-on-white and sometimes the characters are unsubbed when they talk English with a very strong accent from India. This is a lot more difficult then Careful....
No worries, joachim. The vast majority of us are seasoned watchers of bootlegs with bad pic and sound quality. :lol:
Sure, we are, but I'm beginning to doubt if we really are a majority.
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Mario Gaborović
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joachimt
Oct 27 2014, 10:12:44 PM
How would those people watch Agraharathil Kazhuthai then? The only available rip is of poor image and sound quality. The subtitles appear often white-on-white and sometimes the characters are unsubbed when they talk English with a very strong accent from India. This is a lot more difficult then Careful....
Pause the film when saris do not overlap the subs, think about the context and then progress to the next line. You won't have to do it more than 20 times.
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beavis
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I think we are too :)

But there is something to be said about watchability of available rips, like I did with my recent comment on Szürkület (1990) that looses so much of it's 35mm beauty. I also recently saw Na papirnatih avionih (1967) from a decent rip but with subtitles that were not perfect (and sometimes also white on white), and that movie turned out to be really about the language... that much I could get from it, but I felt a lot was lost in translation also. In the first case I was lucky a chance came along to watch it in the cinema, in the second I was dissapoited nobody warned me that the subtitles needed improvement. And from matches like these I would hope/expect that at least a watchable copy is available somewhere... This has been the case up till now. Even the Iranian movie was watchable and understandable from a VHS rip... the screenshots for the Indian movie look ok, but when subtitles go white on white regularly I will get very frustrated indeed. I have this particular need to understand the things that I am watching :) fingers crossed!
might be able to finish this round tomorrow...
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monty
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This will be a tough one - I like both the Romanian option as well as the Chilean one.
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tommy_leazaq
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joachimt
Oct 27 2014, 10:12:44 PM
In group B people are complaining about the lack of English subs for a perfectly understandable English movie with a very decent rip. How would those people watch Agraharathil Kazhuthai then? The only available rip is of poor image and sound quality. The subtitles appear often white-on-white and sometimes the characters are unsubbed when they talk English with a very strong accent from India. This is a lot more difficult then Careful....
One of the two people who had complained in the other thread has the language of Agraharathil Kazhuthai as his mother tongue. -_-

And I don't think there is any difficulty over Indian accent, which is very thick and usually people who speak Indian accent won't talk fast so it'd easy to pick up. Anyway, if any doubt over any of the Tamil dialogue feel free to ask me.
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zhangalan
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joachimt
Oct 27 2014, 10:28:57 PM
monty
Oct 27 2014, 10:22:32 PM
joachimt
Oct 27 2014, 10:12:44 PM
In group B people are complaining about the lack of English subs for a perfectly understandable English movie with a very decent rip. How would those people watch Agraharathil Kazhuthai then? The only available rip is of poor image and sound quality. The subtitles appear often white-on-white and sometimes the characters are unsubbed when they talk English with a very strong accent from India. This is a lot more difficult then Careful....
No worries, joachim. The vast majority of us are seasoned watchers of bootlegs with bad pic and sound quality. :lol:
Sure, we are, but I'm beginning to doubt if we really are a majority.
It depends on how many spare accounts you two have
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XxXApathy420XxX
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Did a quick skim to see how the subs are for Agraharathil Kazhuthai, and good luck :lol:

Posted Image
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tommy_leazaq
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Are everyone relying on the youtube link for "Donkey" or any other better rip available?
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XxXApathy420XxX
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tommy_leazaq
Oct 28 2014, 02:49:38 AM
Are everyone relying on the youtube link for "Donkey" or any other better rip available?
It's the exact same rip. Could definitely use a restoration, but it's still a great film. Someone's been watching Balthazar before making this film.
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XxXApathy420XxX
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1. Agraharathil Kazhutai (1978) - 7/10
2. Reconstituirea [The Reenactment] (1968) - 6/10
3. La nana [The Maid] (2009) - 5/10

I can see why monty loves La nana, since the lead character is pro-cat tehe
Edited by XxXApathy420XxX, Oct 28 2014, 08:33:10 AM.
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monty
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Wow, that's a rather ungenerous rating of the Romanian challenger, not to speak of the Chilean one. Would you care to elaborate, Art?
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XxXApathy420XxX
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La nana had a pretty great lead character and a few of the darker moments were cool, but I felt like the film should have went closer to a genre film. Definitely not all out, but someone along the lines of "The Plumber" or something. This is also totally nitpicking, but like 85% of the time the style of camerawork in this film bothers the hell out of me.

No complaints for Reconstituirea, a solid film. It's no La 'Moara cu noroc' though, which I know you love so much.
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monty
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Wanting a film to be something which it's not, nor ever was meant to be, sounds pretty unreasonable to me. Just to make it clear, La nana is not a genre film. It's a character study.
Edited by monty, Oct 28 2014, 09:52:38 AM.
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Lonewolf2003
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ArthurYanthar
Oct 28 2014, 01:00:02 AM
Did a quick skim to see how the subs are for Agraharathil Kazhuthai, and good luck :lol:

Posted Image
If that's really the best quality rip there is, I might gonna skip this round. I will get too annoyed by not being able to read the subs and that will affect my feelings on the movie overall (which wouldn't be fair). I rather would watch any of the dozens other movies I still want to watch then.
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Mario Gaborović
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monty
Oct 28 2014, 09:49:28 AM
Wanting a film to be something which it's not, nor ever was meant to be, sounds pretty unreasonable to me. Just to make it clear, La nana is not a genre film. It's a character study.
The fact that the very La nana is actually an anti-hero was surprising to me 'cause I expected some sort of compassion generator for her position as a low-class wretch, mistreated by bourgeoisie and forced to clean family's dirty jobs. What's more, is that the roles were reversed. A very good film :) 7/10
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XxXApathy420XxX
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monty
Oct 28 2014, 09:49:28 AM
Wanting a film to be something which it's not, nor ever was meant to be, sounds pretty unreasonable to me. Just to make it clear, La nana is not a genre film. It's a character study.
I never said it was a genre film, but I felt like it would have been much better had it gone that direction. Some may like the the direction this film goes to when the last new maid comes in, but that definitely wasn't for me. I wish that it would have stuck with the childish passive aggression the whole way since those were the best moments of the film for me.
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joachimt
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I have to say Mario is a bit optimistic about the subs. Pausing really doesn't help for a lot of lines. You can pause what you want, but if it is white-on-white, you can stare forever, but still don't see it. And it's a lot more than 20 times.

At the end of the movie, some lines are even off-screen. In the above screenshot, there are two sublines, one is white-on-white, the other has sunk below the actual screensize. Any tips on how to read that, Mario? :lol:

The lines that do appear (somewhat) clearly, are often very quickly gone. So pausing helps in those cases, but who wants to watch a movie like that?

Normally I would only watch this kind of rip if it's on a list I'm working on.

Perceval, why did you choose this movie? It is really a disadvantage, because it's harder to get the movie and a lot of people will even skip this round because of the bad rip. That's a shame. Did you even watch it before nominating it? I see you only checked it last week.
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Lonewolf2003
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Reading this I definitively gonna skip this round unless a better rip is available.
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Angel Glez
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If I remember well Donkey was in a Mubi's World Cup (or was it a Director's Cup?) and got a great reception, even with problematic subs.
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mightysparks
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Everyone loves A Brighter Summer Day and I still don't even know what that film was about because the subs were so bad. I don't know why anyone likes that film because it's literally impossible to read 90% of the subtitles. I'll still give Donkey a go, but it's a shame there are no decent subs.
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Armoreska
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So maybe Tommy L could fill in the gaps then?
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perceval
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I guess I'm not as bothered by bad quality as others are... I thought I understood sufficient to enjoy the tone, the music, the intellectual editing, as well as the story. The images gives enough information to compensate for the unreadable subtitles, as Mario said earlier.

If people don't want to watch films that they won't completely understand the dialogue in, then at least watch the other two films, and then maybe give yourself 90 minutes for Donkey if you feel like it. Voting is not the most important thing here, and even if I haven't seen La Nana yet I think Reconstituirea was well worth watching. ^_^

I chose Donkey not really because it was the favorite Indian film I watched for this cup, but rather because I thought its strong humanistic theme would appeal to more people than my other contenders. I also focused on less known films, alike other managers, and a lot of these are only found in very poor quality. This seems to be the case for older Indian cinema in general. As I understood it, even a famous film like Guru Dutt's Pyaasa existed only in real bad transfers until a recent restoration.
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perceval
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I have only read this text about Donkey, and that one might help people who feels the words in the movie wasn't enough.

Here's a screenshot.
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beavis
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A Brighter Summer Day is another one I was lucky enough to see in the cinema. There is a good print out there that has been doing the festival rounds for a few years now... there was talk about a dvd release too at some point, but I'm not sure why there hasn't been much action on that front.

Thanks for the link to that text Perceval!! It explains a lot about the cultural significance of the donkey and the class system (and the coffee drinking) that was not at all obvious for me. And, just having seen the movie, is not explicitly explained in the movie either.

It is a blessing on the one hand that the style of the movie is, at the surface anyway, extremely simplistic, because the subs are really below acceptable for a good understanding and enjoyment of the movie. Sometimes they are white on white, quickly away, falling of the print, or not even there in the first place. When a poem is recited and you only get some key words to figure it out... thankfully the sounds of the language in those parts was very appealing (unlike poems in some other languages in movies, that to my ears don't even have a rhyming scheme to them :))...

If tommy_leazaq could maybe find the original text of the Dance of Death poem and do a quick translation, that would be very interesting to me.
That one was really hard to read (although it is obvious there are references tot Kali (and/or Shiva) in there and it is meant as a revolutionary chant), the Fire one was at least heard twice, and a lot of the words were readable there :)

I like the revolutionary spirit of the movie! And it is interesting to me on a cultural level too. Although I did need the review to understand the actual points that were being made besides the obvious allegorical morality tale on the surface. I don't think I like the simplistic style much. And, as often with Indian cinema, I feel that much of what is being shown is so connected to local traditions, religion and history, that I can't see a way of building a real personal connection with it

So, glad I've seen it anyway! ;) But I do hope that quality wise this is the worst that it's going to get!!
Edited by beavis, Oct 28 2014, 05:53:06 PM.
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joachimt
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Perceval, don't think I'm complaining for myself. I'm a diehard low quality bootleg watcher and I am capable of enjoying a movie without understanding half of the subs. But I must admit these subs are among the worst I've ever watched. I don't think I've seen ten movies with this quality.

The point is that it might result in less people watching the movie. So therefor I think it's really not a good choice for this game. There are plenty non-mainstream non-canon Indian movies with perfectly decent subs available.

Yes, you are right, it's understandable the way it is. The images tell a lot more than the words. It's not very dialogue driven. But I still feel I could have gotten more out of this movie.

7/10
Haven't seen the other two yet.
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Mario Gaborović
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And it's quite possibly one of the 3 Indian films in total of duration less than 2 hours. Those people truly have all the time in the world.
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joachimt
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Reading about the movie certainly helps. Thanks for the link, perceval!
7.5/10
I'll include it in my 500<400-list.
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brokenface
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Mario Gaborović
Oct 28 2014, 06:11:43 PM
And it's quite possibly one of the 3 Indian films in total of duration less than 2 hours. Those people truly have all the time in the world.
majority of S.Ray's filmography clocks in under 2 hours. outside the musical Bollywood films, runtimes usually aren't so extreme.
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perceval
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joachimt
Oct 28 2014, 06:04:26 PM
The point is that it might result in less people watching the movie. So therefor I think it's really not a good choice for this game.
I must admit that I didn't thought about that.

I think Rivette's L'Amour Fou is the winner for me in terms of bad picture quality, and that one is four hour long...
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brokenface
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perceval
Oct 28 2014, 07:01:33 PM
I think Rivette's L'Amour Fou is the winner for me in terms of bad picture quality, and that one is four hour long...
think there's a fairly decent version of that out there now. same with Out 1 which had same problem for a long time.

as mighty mentioned A Brighter Summer Day is one of the worst (amongst films that are highly rated as classics) and Yang's Taipei Story I've so far resisted 'cause the only version looks borderline unwatchable.

sometimes it pays to wait. the only version of Wake in Fright out there for a long time was horrible, but the restoration available now is beautiful.
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Melvelet
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beavis
Oct 28 2014, 05:15:47 PM
A Brighter Summer Day is another one I was lucky enough to see in the cinema. There is a good print out there that has been doing the festival rounds for a few years now... there was talk about a dvd release too at some point, but I'm not sure why there hasn't been much action on that front.
Every month I hope that Criterion will release a second World Cinema Foundation including A Brighter Summer Day (there have been rumour for years).

Apparently the reason (I read about it somewhere) it wasn't released yet is quite dumb...it's Elvis' fault! Because of his song Are You Lonesome Tonight? being in the movie there are problems with the copyright holders.

I mean, would you still buy an Elvis CD if you've already seen A Brighter Summer Day?
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serri
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they should just paste some quality harsh noise over the song and bingo!
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beavis
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1) Reconstituirea (1968) 9.0
2) Agraharathil Kazhuthai (1978) 7.0
3) La Nana (2009) 6.5

The winner of this group is very clear to me! And again I saved the best for last. I went for the larger rip in the end and I'm glad I did, because this is a beautiful film. The remark from Angel Glez in the dowload link thread about it being ugly looking is very far of the mark! Sounddesign and staging are very immersive and effective too. And the absurd content of the story speaks for itself, but in case you might miss it, there is the dark ending that will put it in perspective for you. Powerful stuff.

Already made some remarks about my number two. I did really like it, but it is hard to really love it... in some areas this one is just really lacking a bit of quality (although for a good judgement on the cinematography I'd need to see a better version, so I didn't let that sway me either way)

La Nana has been in my dvd collection for ages. The film did win awards and has its supporters, and I love South-American cinema in general... but I hadn't seen it yet. Now I have, I don't really know how anyone can find this a great movie. It's small and simplistic (let's introduce a highly breakable model boat and a cat to the story, you'll never guess what is going to happen to them...) and, more to the point, I think it is meant to make us laugh at a few of the antics the maid gets up to, but it was all painfully unfunny to me. The actors don't have to do a lot, but I think the maid did a good job showing how her loneliness and isolation has turned to depression... if only the script had focussed on that, without the comedy, or with a tad more substance, and the movie might actually be worth all the awards it got. Still gave it a slightly positive mark... you have to remain objective in these things :) although I wasn't in the mood for this and found it a bit lacking in substance, there still aren't any major flaws, the actors make the best from what they are given and there were one or two good scenes in there too. People always acuse me of being to easy on movies :)
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tommy_leazaq
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Armoreska
Oct 28 2014, 03:52:17 PM
So maybe Tommy L could fill in the gaps then?
I certainly can do that though I can't do that for next one or two days at least..
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