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iCM Forum Film World Cup match 2D: Sweden vs Poland; Voting deadline: July 5
Topic Started: Jun 22 2015, 04:57:58 AM (2,388 Views)
mjf314
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This is match 2D of the iCM Forum Film World Cup.

SWEDENvPOLAND
Banketten / The Banquet (1948)vNa wylot / Through and Through (1973)
DolwphinvCarmel98

Screenshots


Voting Rules:
- You must watch both films before you vote.
- To vote, rank the 2 films from most favorite to least favorite. (note: you're ranking the individual films, not the countries)

The film with more #1 votes wins. If there's a tie, the match will be extended 3 days.

Here's a quick summary of how the tournament works

iCM list for round 2
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XxXApathy420XxX
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So I just finished Banketten [The Banquet]. Is there any reason why you chose this Ekman film Dolwphin and not Girl with Hyacinths? I think it's just as good, but Hyacinths would have probably been a safer choice.

Still gotta watch Through and Through. I've watched Królikiewicz's The Dancing Hawk which was good but wayyy too stylized for me.
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XxXApathy420XxX
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1. Banketten [The Banquet] (1948) 7/10
2. Na wylot [Through and Through] (1972) 6/10
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joachimt
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ArthurYanthar
Jun 23 2015, 01:14:11 AM
So I just finished Banketten [The Banquet]. Is there any reason why you chose this Ekman film Dolwphin and not Girl with Hyacinths? I think it's just as good, but Hyacinths would have probably been a safer choice.
I was wondering the same thing. I liked Girl with Hyacinths better though.
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joachimt
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1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
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Dolwphin
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joachimt
Jun 23 2015, 08:13:51 AM
ArthurYanthar
Jun 23 2015, 01:14:11 AM
So I just finished Banketten [The Banquet]. Is there any reason why you chose this Ekman film Dolwphin and not Girl with Hyacinths? I think it's just as good, but Hyacinths would have probably been a safer choice.
I was wondering the same thing. I liked Girl with Hyacinths better though.
Well the simple reason is that Banketten is my personal favorite. It has better characters, acting, and story if you ask me. This might be Hasse Ekman's best performance captured on film as the sadistic and cynical husband and the chemistry with Eva Henning is perfect. Also the positive portrayal of the son and the class conflict is also gratifying. I think my second favorite of this director is actually Flickan frĺn tredje raden, but Flicka och Hyacinter would probably be on the podium. Anyhow Hasse Ekman is one of the more renowned directors, but he seems to be relatively unknown to foreigners, and the choice is really not that idiosyncratic.

I hope to be able to find the Polish film. It looks interesting.
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Dolwphin
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Yes already found it. Seeing it tonight then.
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perceval
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I am looking forward to rewatch Banketten and I am happy kind of overrated Flicka och hyacinter wasn't chosen instead. But Flickan frĺn tredje raden - oh, that would have been great!
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Mario Gaborović
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1. Banketten
2. Na wylot
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Lonewolf2003
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1. Na wylot (1973): 6.8
2. Banketten (1948): 6.5
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tommy_leazaq
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Looks like another humdinger of a match on the line.
Edited by tommy_leazaq, Jun 25 2015, 03:44:54 AM.
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mightysparks
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Hope I can get these watched :( don't wanna ruin my perfect score lol
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joachimt
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mightysparks
Jun 25 2015, 02:50:26 PM
Hope I can get these watched :( don't wanna ruin my perfect score lol
I thought you watch everything from round 2 already before you went on your trip. :unsure:
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Cocoa
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I liked the first half of Banketten, but didn't care for the second half of it. I didn't care for the first half of Na wylot, but liked the second half of the film... :lol:

1. Na wylot (1973)
2. Banketten (1948)
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mightysparks
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joachimt
Jun 25 2015, 03:47:40 PM
mightysparks
Jun 25 2015, 02:50:26 PM
Hope I can get these watched :( don't wanna ruin my perfect score lol
I thought you watch everything from round 2 already before you went on your trip. :unsure:
Didn't get time to watch these two :(
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monty
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What a trite melodrama the Swedish film is - it really has not stood the test of time.


1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
Edited by monty, Jun 27 2015, 11:00:41 PM.
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monty
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Regarding the Polish entry, here's a little something for the benefit of prospective viewers:

Królikiewicz was one of the few Polish directors who was also a film theorist and based his films on a specific theoretical understanding of cinematic perception. His conception of cinematic perception is an existential and ethical one, essentially grounded on the idea that human experience is based on the construction of order out of chaotic and fleeting perceptions.
Thus Królikiewicz attempted in his films not to create this order for the spectators, but to present them with chaotic fleeting perceptions that are nevertheless organised in such a way as to be susceptible to this perceptual ordering process on the part of the viewer. To encounter a film like Through and Through is to face the challenge of having to reconstruct an orderly perception out of a chaotic influx of images. Crucial to this process is that it is not a purely objective one but one that concerns and implicates the viewer’s own subjectivity in a type of double cognition, at once subjective and objective, capable of transcending the usual limits of self-identity, which is simply an intensification of the psychic process that takes place during any film screening.

In practice this means that the resulting films contain gaps and are built out of fragmentary perceptions that suggest a whole without making it entirely available to the viewer; there is no omniscient god-like perspective on the events featured on the screen but merely fragmented perceptions taking place within the cinematic world that leave it up to the viewer to piece them together. Certainly Through and Through conformed to this idea from the beginning with a chaotic party scene in which a sleeping drunk (who only later turns out to be the central character) is bullied into playing the guitar and beaten when he refuses among the chaos of a drunken evening portrayed with an almost Warholian blankness and use of duration. Next the viewer witnesses a first communion, where our drunk, revealed to be a musician, is being fired for his drunkenness. All of the pieces of a linear narrative are present but still need to be precisely “articulated” by the viewer and this is how the film continues for most of its duration.
What is especially striking in the film is the use of extra-screen space; the key event in the film takes place behind a closed door, through which shouting voices and crashing objects are heard but not seen, as well as being suggested by shadows underneath the door, then the scene is shown through a rapid montage which makes the shower scene in Hitchcock’s Psycho (1960) seem slow and calm in comparison. This alternation of invisibility with hyper-visibility is perfectly analogous with the state of mind of the central characters’ experience, as testified by their later difficulties in reconstructing exactly what happened.
Edited by monty, Jun 27 2015, 11:19:39 PM.
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zhangalan
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Sadly I don't like any of them.
Like monty said Banketten is a melodrama without any surprise.
Strangely Na wylot looks more like the type Dolwphin would pick. I find it a bit messy with scenes of different styles and I can rarely feel the emotional flow within. Still a relatively interesting viewing experience than Banketten.

1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
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Dolwphin
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zhangalan
Jun 28 2015, 03:30:32 AM
Sadly I don't like any of them.
Like monty said Banketten is a melodrama without any surprise.
Strangely Na wylot looks more like the type Dolwphin would pick. I find it a bit messy with scenes of different styles and I can rarely feel the emotional flow within. Still a relatively interesting viewing experience than Banketten.

1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
Just for fun you could see this excellent short by Arne Sucksdorff (who made The Great Adventure which I have not seen yet): https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/en+kluven+varld/

It is close to a favorite for me and probably would have satisfied your expectations. It is on kg.
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monty
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Dolwphin
Jun 28 2015, 02:45:36 PM
zhangalan
Jun 28 2015, 03:30:32 AM
Sadly I don't like any of them.
Like monty said Banketten is a melodrama without any surprise.
Strangely Na wylot looks more like the type Dolwphin would pick. I find it a bit messy with scenes of different styles and I can rarely feel the emotional flow within. Still a relatively interesting viewing experience than Banketten.

1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
Just for fun you could see this excellent short by Arne Sucksdorff (who made The Great Adventure which I have not seen yet): https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/en+kluven+varld/

It is close to a favorite for me and probably would have satisfied your expectations. It is on kg.
You definitely should give Det stora äventyret a look.
Edited by monty, Jun 28 2015, 03:43:46 PM.
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Dolwphin
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monty
Jun 28 2015, 02:49:37 PM
Dolwphin
Jun 28 2015, 02:45:36 PM
zhangalan
Jun 28 2015, 03:30:32 AM
Sadly I don't like any of them.
Like monty said Banketten is a melodrama without any surprise.
Strangely Na wylot looks more like the type Dolwphin would pick. I find it a bit messy with scenes of different styles and I can rarely feel the emotional flow within. Still a relatively interesting viewing experience than Banketten.

1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
Just for fun you could see this excellent short by Arne Sucksdorff (who made The Great Adventure which I have not seen yet): https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/en+kluven+varld/

It is close to a favorite for me and probably would have satisfied your expectations. It is on kg.
You definitely should give Det stora äventyret a look.
Yeah I know.
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Lilarcor
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Banketten
For some reason I've been watching a lot of films featuring destructive relationships lately, the central relationship here reminded me of Polanski's Bitter Moon in its bleakness. That and a couple of other things I found rather suprising for a 1940s film but then again I haven't watched many films from that decade this year so that might explain it. The political discussion between the son and the elders is something that I would suggest as progressive for a 40s film but maybe it isn't. The titillating scene with Eva Henning in a very short nightgown though is definitely not very common for the time and adds to the sexual tension of the film, which it is very forward on a couple of times. In addition to the interestingly depicted "love" triangle this film has a great father-son dynamic with a welcomed heartwarming conclusion. The other plot endings in the film are unfortunately too rushed.

Na wylot
Great casting, that woman looks insane.. those eyes are terrifying. I watched this twice because I could not follow it the first time around - partly because of the opening scene which I still get nothing out of. It feels very disjointed with the rest of the film which made more and more sense from scene to scene. You kind of find a way to put the pieces together as the story progresses and for me personally that made it possible to come to terms with it, even with its rather extreme nihilism which usually puts me off (Kids by Larry Clark is a noteworthy exception).

I still can't say I love it however, stylistically I'm not a huge fan with its lingering on objects and part blocking of faces. I don't feel like the film has many points it wants across though and it already feels like I'm going to forget I even saw this after a short while.

Both films are imperfect but sometimes those kinds of films can be even more interesting to discuss and read about, so I'm glad I saw them.

1. Banketten 7/10
2. Na wylot 6/10? 7/10?
Edited by Lilarcor, Jun 29 2015, 02:12:24 AM.
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zhangalan
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Dolwphin
Jun 28 2015, 03:45:15 PM
monty
Jun 28 2015, 02:49:37 PM
Dolwphin
Jun 28 2015, 02:45:36 PM
zhangalan
Jun 28 2015, 03:30:32 AM
Sadly I don't like any of them.
Like monty said Banketten is a melodrama without any surprise.
Strangely Na wylot looks more like the type Dolwphin would pick. I find it a bit messy with scenes of different styles and I can rarely feel the emotional flow within. Still a relatively interesting viewing experience than Banketten.

1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
Just for fun you could see this excellent short by Arne Sucksdorff (who made The Great Adventure which I have not seen yet): https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/en+kluven+varld/

It is close to a favorite for me and probably would have satisfied your expectations. It is on kg.
You definitely should give Det stora äventyret a look.
Yeah I know.
Er, I just watched it, but it looks like a normal animal documentary.
Your avatar is more interesting than that
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Dolwphin
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zhangalan
Jun 29 2015, 11:29:05 AM
Dolwphin
Jun 28 2015, 03:45:15 PM
monty
Jun 28 2015, 02:49:37 PM
Dolwphin
Jun 28 2015, 02:45:36 PM
zhangalan
Jun 28 2015, 03:30:32 AM
Sadly I don't like any of them.
Like monty said Banketten is a melodrama without any surprise.
Strangely Na wylot looks more like the type Dolwphin would pick. I find it a bit messy with scenes of different styles and I can rarely feel the emotional flow within. Still a relatively interesting viewing experience than Banketten.

1. Na wylot
2. Banketten
Just for fun you could see this excellent short by Arne Sucksdorff (who made The Great Adventure which I have not seen yet): https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/en+kluven+varld/

It is close to a favorite for me and probably would have satisfied your expectations. It is on kg.
You definitely should give Det stora äventyret a look.
Yeah I know.
Er, I just watched it, but it looks like a normal animal documentary.
Your avatar is more interesting than that
You are not welcome in my country.
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metaller
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Good films, but the decision is easy enough for me this time around. To my own surprise I go for the classic melodrama instead of the more expressive film.

1. Banketten
2. Na wylot

My quick thoughts:

Banketten (1948, Hasse Ekman)
Great acting display in a melodram about an aging bank-owner nearing retirement and his three children of whom noone is a possible successor to his job for different reasons. Despite its short-ish runtime, it manages to give each character and storyline enough room to breathe and integrate itself into the bigger picture. Feels very fresh and way more direct than Hollywood counterparts from the same time, with some very dark stuff in the script, especially in the subplot of the daughter and her unhappy marriage.
7.5/10

Na wylot / Through and Through (1973, Grzegorz Królikiewicz)
Very expressive film about an out-of-their luck outsider-to-society couple mudering an old couple and the trial afterwards, about them explaining their feelings and motives. Some nice playfully experimental techniques that underline the psychological state of the protagonists quite well, although a bit too overdone overall for my taste.
7/10
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joachimt
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Banketten - Na Wylot
4 - 5

Only 5 days left. Come on people!
Next match starts tomorrow already.
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tommy_leazaq
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joachimt
Jun 30 2015, 05:29:51 AM
Banketten - Na Wylot
4 - 5

Only 5 days left. Come on people!
Next match starts tomorrow already.
Wow.. I thought the match had started just now and we have plenty of time still. The days are surely flying..
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Angel Glez
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1. The Banquet
2. Through and Through

Both very 60s, although none of them actually was! The first one pre-Antonioniesque style, the second one embracing the late Polish new wave. Both cold as ice, both left me mostly indifferent.
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joachimt
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Am I the only one who really LOVED Na Wylot? I thought it was a very intense ride with great cinematography. The lack of dialogue in large parts of the movie added to the cold dark atmosphere.
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zhangalan
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joachimt
Jun 30 2015, 05:29:51 AM
Banketten - Na Wylot
4 - 5

Only 5 days left. Come on people!
Next match starts tomorrow already.
Much thanks to Funkybusiness, proofreading of Back to Back, Face to Face's subtitles has been finished (with only 2 doubtful lines left, Funky and I will solve it as soon as possible).

Here are some screenshots of the film in case MJF needed to start the thread.
Spoiler: click to toggle
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clemmetarey
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1. Na Wylot (1973) 7/10
2. Banketten (1948) 6/10

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wolski888
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1. Na Wylot
2. Banketten
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zhangalan
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And now Poland is making a return. Still only 1 vote ahead of Sweden. Will we have anothet extension?
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Mario Gaborović
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zhangalan
Jul 1 2015, 12:21:14 AM
And now Poland is making a return. Still only 1 vote ahead of Sweden. Will we have anothet extension?
Two votes. The score is 5-7.
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tommy_leazaq
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Banquet was better than I expected, saved by two interesting characters Pierre and Hugo. Still not a favorite.
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joachimt
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Mario Gaborović
Jul 1 2015, 12:25:11 AM
zhangalan
Jul 1 2015, 12:21:14 AM
And now Poland is making a return. Still only 1 vote ahead of Sweden. Will we have anothet extension?
Two votes. The score is 5-7.
Yep, I got 5-7 as well. Sweden hasn't had the lead since the third vote in this match. After 2-5 Sweden got back to 5-5 and now it's Poland again. Still anything can happen, because we should get a lot of more votes in the next four days.
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tommy_leazaq
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1. Na Wylot - Good film with experimental structure and sympathizable characters. But bit boring though.
2. Bankettan - Not a bad film with traditional structure and few interesting characters. Entertaining but predictable and nothing special.
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tommy_leazaq
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Cocoa
Jun 25 2015, 06:08:32 PM
I liked the first half of Banketten, but didn't care for the second half of it. I didn't care for the first half of Na wylot, but liked the second half of the film... :lol:

1. Na wylot (1973)
2. Banketten (1948)
Same feelings here. :D

I really liked the aristocratic parents-rebellious son conflict and dysfunctional family gatherings in the first half of Banketten but disappointed that the second half fully occupied with the useless and forced love triangle. And Pierre character was severely under utilized. He was awesome.. :)

For Na Wylot, The first half kind of confusing and couldn't get what exactly happens (Well, what exactly happened in the big Government office kind of place with long tracking shot scene? Was it Employment exchange?) so it was difficult to relate to the characters. Only after the Train scene, it picked up for me. And climatic trial scene was well executed.
Edited by tommy_leazaq, Jul 1 2015, 03:36:44 PM.
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monty
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tommy_leazaq
Jul 1 2015, 03:26:35 PM
For Na Wylot, The first half kind of confusing and couldn't get what exactly happens (Well, what exactly happened in the big Government office kind of place with long tracking shot scene? Was it Employment exchange?) so it was difficult to relate to the characters. Only after the Train scene, it picked up for me. And climatic trial scene was well executed.
I feel the same. The first half left me cold, the second half saved the film from being a total loss.
All in all, neither of these films bowled me over but in the end the Polish candidate was the best lesser choice.
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jvv
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1. Banketten - 7/10
2. Na wylot - 4/10

I would have liked Banketten more if they had spent less time on the affair/unhappy marriage and more on the socialism/capitalism angle. I generally don't like experimental movies and Na wylot isn't an exception.
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